Baylor game thread

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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby mredle » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:09 pm

go_jays wrote:
mredle wrote:
go_jays wrote:

We could have used Toby as a 5 last night but not at the middle of Baylor's zone. That has to be a passer (but if the defense gives you the shot you have to bee ready to take the shot. Ronnie wasn't. Lesson learned (hopefully by Ronnie and Mitch).


Hegner has already been used there and did quite well. He is a very good passer from the high post. He's actually the best option we have there against a big team. Ballock CAN play there but isn't as effective because of his lack of size against bigger teams. Hegner can play there against anybody.

And I would disagree with you about him at the 5 against Baylor. He's not athletic enough to play low against size (especially against someone like Baylor.) He doesn't have the vertical, is average at blocking out (has gotten better over the years) and certainly isn't very quick getting to the rim. Against "ok" teams he is adequate at the 5 ... he can use that sky hook he has developed. Against really good teams with size and athleticism, he's better off using his mid-range and 3 point game.


Hegner provides depth at the 5 and may be able to slip behind the defense, slide to the short baseline or rotate out to the deep corner. The player in the paint is primarily a facilitator and not a traditional, back to the basket post player. He looks distribute to players on the near baseline, kick out to open wings on rotation or, if the defense backs off, to take the open intermediate jumper. Think in terms of a penetrating point guard on a drive and dish only here the penetration in the paint has already occurred. You can run something similar with good passing post players but both posts should be good passers and rugged inside to handle the back to the basket rotation and dish. I'm not sure we have that skill set among Tini, Manny and Toby. Having two of these three players in the lineup at the same time also takes away our first option against the zone, namely, beat it down the court and score before they set up.
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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby go_jays » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:50 pm

mredle wrote:
Hegner provides depth at the 5 and may be able to slip behind the defense, slide to the short baseline or rotate out to the deep corner. The player in the paint is primarily a facilitator and not a traditional, back to the basket post player. He looks distribute to players on the near baseline, kick out to open wings on rotation or, if the defense backs off, to take the open intermediate jumper. Think in terms of a penetrating point guard on a drive and dish only here the penetration in the paint has already occurred. You can run something similar with good passing post players but both posts should be good passers and rugged inside to handle the back to the basket rotation and dish. I'm not sure we have that skill set among Tini, Manny and Toby. Having two of these three players in the lineup at the same time also takes away our first option against the zone, namely, beat it down the court and score before they set up.


Yes, I know what a player does at the high post against a zone... most everything that Hegner can do. Against the zone, Martin and Manny play the 5. Hegner could play the 5 in that situation but he's better at the 4 playing the high post... like Harrell... only better because he will take and hit the 15 footer. He can't take it to the rim like Harrell can... but against Baylor with 3 rim protectors... Hegner would have been the better choice taking the 15 footer.

Yes, Hegner can provide depth at the 5. But that would be number 3 on his list of skills. His real value is against a zone in the high post and stretch 4 in our base offense.
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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby mredle » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:46 pm

go_jays wrote:
mredle wrote:
Hegner provides depth at the 5 and may be able to slip behind the defense, slide to the short baseline or rotate out to the deep corner. The player in the paint is primarily a facilitator and not a traditional, back to the basket post player. He looks distribute to players on the near baseline, kick out to open wings on rotation or, if the defense backs off, to take the open intermediate jumper. Think in terms of a penetrating point guard on a drive and dish only here the penetration in the paint has already occurred. You can run something similar with good passing post players but both posts should be good passers and rugged inside to handle the back to the basket rotation and dish. I'm not sure we have that skill set among Tini, Manny and Toby. Having two of these three players in the lineup at the same time also takes away our first option against the zone, namely, beat it down the court and score before they set up.


Yes, I know what a player does at the high post against a zone... most everything that Hegner can do. Against the zone, Martin and Manny play the 5. Hegner could play the 5 in that situation but he's better at the 4 playing the high post... like Harrell... only better because he will take and hit the 15 footer. He can't take it to the rim like Harrell can... but against Baylor with 3 rim protectors... Hegner would have been the better choice taking the 15 footer.

Yes, Hegner can provide depth at the 5. But that would be number 3 on his list of skills. His real value is against a zone in the high post and stretch 4 in our base offense.


"He can't take it to the rim like Harrell can ..." or threaten to take it to the rim.
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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:16 pm

mredle wrote:
go_jays wrote:
mredle wrote:
Hegner provides depth at the 5 and may be able to slip behind the defense, slide to the short baseline or rotate out to the deep corner. The player in the paint is primarily a facilitator and not a traditional, back to the basket post player. He looks distribute to players on the near baseline, kick out to open wings on rotation or, if the defense backs off, to take the open intermediate jumper. Think in terms of a penetrating point guard on a drive and dish only here the penetration in the paint has already occurred. You can run something similar with good passing post players but both posts should be good passers and rugged inside to handle the back to the basket rotation and dish. I'm not sure we have that skill set among Tini, Manny and Toby. Having two of these three players in the lineup at the same time also takes away our first option against the zone, namely, beat it down the court and score before they set up.


Yes, I know what a player does at the high post against a zone... most everything that Hegner can do. Against the zone, Martin and Manny play the 5. Hegner could play the 5 in that situation but he's better at the 4 playing the high post... like Harrell... only better because he will take and hit the 15 footer. He can't take it to the rim like Harrell can... but against Baylor with 3 rim protectors... Hegner would have been the better choice taking the 15 footer.

Yes, Hegner can provide depth at the 5. But that would be number 3 on his list of skills. His real value is against a zone in the high post and stretch 4 in our base offense.


"He can't take it to the rim like Harrell can ..." or threaten to take it to the rim.


Yeah - Ronnie was such a huge threat taking it to the rim against Baylor (and then T-Rexing every bunny shot) that they dared him to try to shoot this 5 or 6 footers. Sure would have sucked to have had Toby as an option there.
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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby mredle » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:59 pm

Not the point and I pointed out earlier that Ronnie short armed his shots in the paints. I attributed it to his not looking for his shot but looking to dump it off instead,
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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:48 pm

mredle wrote:Not the point and I pointed out earlier that Ronnie short armed his shots in the paints. I attributed it to his not looking for his shot but looking to dump it off instead,


Yeah- Ronnie was “passing” all those that hit that front of the rim. Got it.

The point is that Toby can pass well enough from the middle of the zone and can hit that shot enough to draw attention, opening up that base line cut. And as far as going to the rim goes, Toby has a far more impressive dunk in game than Ronnie at this point, so .,,
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Re: Baylor game thread

Postby vivid_dude » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:26 pm

mredle wrote:
vivid_dude wrote:Going into this year, I was hoping for "serviceable big man play." My expectations or dreams weren't much more than that. Just don't be the reason Creighton can't win games, and I would have been content.

But, dare I say, Martin Krampelj may be a net positive for the team this year. And while Manny's lateral quickness reminds me of Mark Eaton, without all that 7'4" baggage, I think he's going to be what we need off the bench. It was interesting seeing Martin and Manny playing at the same time last night. Mac never does that.

Ronnie dinosaur-arming all those six footers was not fun to watch, but I still have faith in him. People are raving about the freshmen (rightfully so), but I think at the end of the year, we will look at Ronnie as being the third most important player on this team.

With some time to digest the game, I still think Creighton fans should look at last night with optimism about the rest of the season. The last time the Jays played Baylor and shot poorly, CU lost by 30. Because without lights-out shooting, CU wasn't able to compete in games like this. Last night, it was one of the worst shooting performances I've ever seen, and Creighton controlled the game for 34 minutes. The shooting was an anomaly - I don't think the new defensive intensity/effectiveness was.

I hate to sunshine pump a loss, but I'm sunshine pumping a loss.


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