Butler game thread

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Re: Butler game thread

Postby drbluejay » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:28 pm

Very nice game and crowd last night. Puts us in sole position of 1st place. Keep it going at Xavier. I loved the assists by Foster in the 2nd half. It tells a lot about how far he has come since last year. Go Jays.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby AttyAlum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:43 pm

Polyfro wrote:
section202jay wrote:- Martin Krampelj has become as big of an impact as Justin Patton. JP had more of a defensive presence but Krampelj is a beast on the boards.

Funny story:

Patton: 12.9 points, 6.2 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, 2.05 dunks in 25 minutes per game
Krampelj: 12.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, 0.6 blocks, 1.88 dunks in 23.8 minutes per game

To be fair, that's a full season of JP and a half-season for Krampelj. But if we look at just the first 17 games side-by-side -- 12 non-conference games and the first five Big East games for both -- here's what it looks like:

Patton: 14.0 points, 6.2 rebounds, 1.6 blocks, 2.5 dunks in 26.1 minutes per game
Krampelj: 12.8 points, 8.5 rebounds, 0.6 blocks, 1.88 dunks in 23.8 minutes per game

They're different players, as you noted (and JP's offensive numbers went down after Watson's injury), but if you'd have told me in October that Krampelj would do this I'd have laughed.

Krampelj is most improved player year over year since Anthony Tolliver. He rebounds everything, he's physical, plays with attitude, and as one of the studio pundits said on the air last night, his hands are like velcro. That play where he came running down the lane, snared a point blank pass at his waist and then jammed it home gets fumbled by every center we have had for as far back as I remember. I love this guy. Might want to watch out for those frustration dunks on the wrong basket - I thought for sure he'd get T'd up there...and probably should have been!

Two years in a row we entered the season with major questions at center. Both years, the questions were answered quickly and the "fix" ended up being one of our strongest positions on the floor. Mac doesn't get enough credit for his development of big men. Whoever found Krampelj during recruiting (D-Rock?) gets a lot of credit too.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby fritzpointer » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:54 pm

Lutz recruited Martin. Go Jays!
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby HandDownManDown » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:00 pm

Didn't we find out about Martin when one of Buzz's pissed off ex-assistant coaches told us about him?
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby Panhandle Jay » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:02 pm

I would argue that Doug McDermott had the largest transformation year to year than Tolliver or Krampelj. To come out of nowhere and become national player of the year and top five scorer of all-time in cbb history is pretty impressive. But I'll save that for the off season discussion.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby mannygakou » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm

Jaybird wrote:MN's numbers are mostly accurate.

Against Marquette at home, we trailed by as many as 19, and Justin went for 10 and 9
At Georgetown (the next game) we fell behind by as many as 22 (our low water mark), and Patton got 20 and 7
Last reg. season game, @ Marquette, we trailed by up to 18, and Justin got us 11 and 5
And, in the BE final, we were getting smoked by up to 20 and Patton finished with 10 and 3.

There were also a couple post-Watson games where we trailed by 16, and JP didn't hit double digits in either points or boards.

I have no idea at what point in any of those games was Justin more productive or less, but maybe MN does and, anyway, if his argument is that Justin was helping his stats when it wasn't helping the team quite so much, whereas Martin's numbers appear more evenly distributed and are coming at some key times in the games, that might be debatable, but hardly mind-boggling.

It's a really mind-boggling take because here's the real data:

Vs. Marquette: 4 points after being down by 19
@Georgetown: the only good thing from that game was Patton's 20 and 7; scored 4 points after being down by 20
@ Nova: scored no points after trailing by 16 (Nova's largest lead and the game was close until the last 5 minutes)
@ Marquette: his last of 11 points made it a 10 point deficit midway through the second half; none scored after MU took its 19 point lead
vs. Nova, BE title game: 4 points scored after Nova took its 20 point lead early in the second half

Using the argument of "JP boosted his points when we were losing by 20" gets you a whopping 12 points within that data set, which accounts for less than 3% of his season point total. It's a lazy and false narrative if that's what people actually think.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby Polyfro » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:10 pm

Here's the Morning After recap over on WBR -- it's an overstuffed version today with a lot of quotes, stats, analysis, the Bluejay Beat podcast, and a look back at Steve Lavin's visit for Dollar Beer Night. Enjoy!

http://whiteandbluereview.com/morning-a ... er-butler/
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby LynchMob » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:39 pm

"Patton wasn't good" is a take that's hotter than the sun. I can't believe people are bothering to pull out numbers to refute it.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:10 pm

I almost shed a tear everytime I think of what this team might look like this year if JP was also on the roster. It's possible, of course, that Martin would not have developed to this level if that happened. But if we were able to put this version of Martin on the floor alongside JP with another year's development -- man, that would be a scary, scary team to play against.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby JaysLifer » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:26 pm

LynchMob wrote:"Patton wasn't good" is a take that's hotter than the sun. I can't believe people are bothering to pull out numbers to refute it.

People are using numbers because they are refuting a different take than the one you just made up. People shouldn't be offended when someone argues that one really good player has been more valuable than another really good (or great) player. And saying that Martin is more valuable than Patton is not the same as saying Patton wasn't good. If someone argued that Wragge was more valuable at Nova in 2014, would you take that to mean that they're saying Doug wasn't good?

As great as Patton was, and as fun as he was to watch, he wasn't the most valuable player on last year's team. Patton's production was largely a product of what Mo was able to create for him. If the numbers prove me wrong, that's fine, but my recollection is that Patton's production dipped (or wasn't as impactful) after Mo went down. Mo was one of those point guards who literally made everyone else better, and that includes Patton. Not only did he make everyone else better, but he got his within the offense too.

Now, we're seeing Martin put up eerily similar numbers at a time when point guard is probably the team's biggest weakness. So, where Patton was able to thrive and excel in a system that was led by an all-American-level point guard, Martin is doing it without that type of point guard (I do recognize that both Khyri and Marcus are playing at a higher level and distributing the ball better this year). Is it really so outlandish to say that Martin is having a bigger impact on this team than Justin had on last year's team? To me, it isn't.
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