Butler game thread

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Re: Butler game thread

Postby RVB » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:23 am

Creighton's offensive execution following timeouts proved beneficial against Butler

http://www.omaha.com/creighton/blog/cre ... 6bd36.html
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby Wizard of Westroads » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:55 am

RVB wrote:Creighton's offensive execution following timeouts proved beneficial against Butler

http://www.omaha.com/creighton/blog/cre ... 6bd36.html

One thing I love about Jon Nyatawa's coverage: the guy obviously loves hoops. Good stuff here, most reporters wouldn't go to this kind of detail.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby Chicagojayfan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:49 am

JaysLifer wrote:
LynchMob wrote:"Patton wasn't good" is a take that's hotter than the sun. I can't believe people are bothering to pull out numbers to refute it.


People are using numbers because they are refuting a different take than the one you just made up. People shouldn't be offended when someone argues that one really good player has been more valuable than another really good (or great) player. And saying that Martin is more valuable than Patton is not the same as saying Patton wasn't good. If someone argued that Wragge was more valuable at Nova in 2014, would you take that to mean that they're saying Doug wasn't good?

As great as Patton was, and as fun as he was to watch, he wasn't the most valuable player on last year's team. Patton's production was largely a product of what Mo was able to create for him. If the numbers prove me wrong, that's fine, but my recollection is that Patton's production dipped (or wasn't as impactful) after Mo went down. Mo was one of those point guards who literally made everyone else better, and that includes Patton. Not only did he make everyone else better, but he got his within the offense too.

Now, we're seeing Martin put up eerily similar numbers at a time when point guard is probably the team's biggest weakness. So, where Patton was able to thrive and excel in a system that was led by an all-American-level point guard, Martin is doing it without that type of point guard (I do recognize that both Khyri and Marcus are playing at a higher level and distributing the ball better this year). Is it really so outlandish to say that Martin is having a bigger impact on this team than Justin had on last year's team? To me, it isn't.


I don't think it's that outlandish to say that, but I think the two teams are very different in style. Much of what we were doing last year was run through Watson and it worked incredibly well until the injury. This year, the coaches have done a great job of working without a central guy to trigger the offense and the way the entire roster shares the ball is really a beautiful thing to watch.

We also need to remember what Patton's real limitations were last year. He often played D on the other team's 4 because of his weakness in post D and the strength he had in blocking from the weakside (this is similar to what we are doing with Martin as well, but for somewhat different reasons), and he had a real raw post game so was totally dependent on pick and roll type action and beating someone to the spot offensively. I think Martin probably has more of a post game now, and he also gets similar kinds of baskets in our system (i.e., we spread the floor and force teams to follow the movement and the ball and leave tons of space inside for a mobile big like him).

Martin might not have the huge ceiling Patton had, but he's a bit more mature player than Patton was (3rd year in the program and more physically mature), but he's still a young guy who can get better.. think about that for a minute or two ;)

I don't really make a call on more important or less important, as I think our system needs to have 5 productive offensive players on the floor at all times in order to make things work. The coaches have done a great job this year in making teams defend everyone on the floor and all over the floor Martin's an important part of that, no doubt, and we wouldn't be where we are without him, or to a lesser extent without any of the 3 big men we have in our rotation.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby flixx » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:20 pm

Wizard of Westroads wrote:
RVB wrote:Creighton's offensive execution following timeouts proved beneficial against Butler

http://www.omaha.com/creighton/blog/cre ... 6bd36.html

One thing I love about Jon Nyatawa's coverage: the guy obviously loves hoops. Good stuff here, most reporters wouldn't go to this kind of detail.


I really appreciate Joe Nyatawa's insight as well. Seems the best writer at the OWH (though I realize this is faint praise). Always read his pre and post-game analysis.
By the way, I saw a graphic when I re-watched the Butler game...Creighton is like #5 in the nation in terms of time of offensive possession---something like 14.3 seconds...that is unreal. What high school kid would NOT want to play that type of fast paced, aggressive offensive style???
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby Jaybird » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:26 pm

flixx wrote:
Wizard of Westroads wrote:
RVB wrote:Creighton's offensive execution following timeouts proved beneficial against Butler

http://www.omaha.com/creighton/blog/cre ... 6bd36.html

One thing I love about Jon Nyatawa's coverage: the guy obviously loves hoops. Good stuff here, most reporters wouldn't go to this kind of detail.


I really appreciate Joe Nyatawa's insight as well. Seems the best writer at the OWH (though I realize this is faint praise). Always read his pre and post-game analysis.
By the way, I saw a graphic when I re-watched the Butler game...Creighton is like #5 in the nation in terms of time of offensive possession---something like 14.3 seconds...that is unreal. What high school kid would NOT want to play that type of fast paced, aggressive offensive style???


That's a style that's not only fun for fans, but it also wears out most opponents over time; results in more def rebounds since the other team knows it has to scramble back on D after a missed shot; tends to neutralize another team's size advantage since it's tough for a lot of bigs to hustle down to get into position on defense when we're flying up and down the court like that; and leads to more offensive possessions, which leads to more points. That means that even when the shots aren't falling, we're giving ourselves more chances to win even the ugly games. Against Butler, we had 70 possessions and scored at better than a 1.2 per possession clip. That's pretty impressive. (Of course, all this works if you only bring in guys who buy into it, and if you're careful not to let the pace wear out your own team).

I wouldn't be surprised if, deep down, there's a Money Ball approach to how Creighton plays, kind of a Sabermetrics basis for designing an offense, where possessions equal on-base % and, I suppose, 3s equal slugging pct. Or something like that.
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby wildjays » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Wizard of Westroads wrote:
RVB wrote:Creighton's offensive execution following timeouts proved beneficial against Butler

http://www.omaha.com/creighton/blog/cre ... 6bd36.html

One thing I love about Jon Nyatawa's coverage: the guy obviously loves hoops. Good stuff here, most reporters wouldn't go to this kind of detail.


I really enjoy Jon and Matt DeMarinis podcast after the game. This last one they almost talked for an hour about such interesting topics in the game and that behind the scenes observations that you may not see in print or that Jon doesn't get an opportunity to write about in the paper.

Yes I'm sounding like a company guy, but hard not to promote something that has been such a great addition to the games this season.

The bottom line is those guys have a lot of great insight and know what they are talking about.
White & Blue Review-- http://whiteandbluereview.com
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby cujaysfan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:02 pm

those are awesome - and outside of the coaches and players

no one is around the team more than those two guys

best part of the season off the court (and steve lavin dollar beer night) so far
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby JayPak » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:28 pm

flixx wrote:I really appreciate Joe Nyatawa's insight as well. Seems the best writer at the OWH (though I realize this is faint praise). Always read his pre and post-game analysis.
By the way, I saw a graphic when I re-watched the Butler game...Creighton is like #5 in the nation in terms of time of offensive possession---something like 14.3 seconds...that is unreal. What high school kid would NOT want to play that type of fast paced, aggressive offensive style???

So THAT’S why the clock always stops at 14.3 for the national anthem!
"I want to beat (NU) so bad. This is a blue state...I’m a Creighton Bluejay. I’ve always wanted to go to Creighton...never really liked Nebraska...Creighton trusted me and Nebraska was just…out there...Can’t wait to play ’em..." ~Justin Patton
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Re: Butler game thread

Postby mannygakou » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:29 am

Jaybird wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if, deep down, there's a Money Ball approach to how Creighton plays, kind of a Sabermetrics basis for designing an offense, where possessions equal on-base % and, I suppose, 3s equal slugging pct. Or something like that.


There's certainly an element of advanced stats playing out in CU's favor, and this is largely driven by their improved defense. Of course, if your adjusted margin per possession is greater than the opponent then it only amplifies the impact when there's more possessions to be had.

As for the 3's, Mac's style of pace and space has allowed for greater use of efficient shots around the basket, high % of 3 attempts, and fewer mid-range jumpers, the latter of which has been shown to be amongst the least efficient shot in basketball. The last two rosters have the personnel to excel at getting to the basket while still shooting well from 3. Part of it is roster construction, but a good bit is built on Mac's ability to instill unselfish play into the culture. Foster's shot selection and his improved passing ability comes to mind.

Really impressive job by the staff so far. Really hope they can incorporate a little more depth to withstand fatigue and injuries.
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