Kalk/Trey - CU history?

[vivid_dude]

Some might enjoy this website:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/creighton/men/leaders-and-records-career.html

It shows a bunch of Creighton basketball records and other stats. A few stood out.

- Looking at pure numbers, Chad Gallagher deserves more consideration for any Top 10 all-time CU lists.

- Paul Silas averaged - repeat AVERAGED - 21.6 rebounds per game in his college career. Damn.

- All-time "offensive rebound percentage" leader in Creighton history? You guessed it. Fred King!

- All-time "Win Shares Per 40 Minutes" (started tracking in 1995) leader in CU history? You guessed it. Livan Pyfrom! Just ahead of Kyle Korver. Doug Swenson had a higher win share than Doug McDermott. McBuckets is the #2 Doug in CU history! I'm beginning to doubt the value of this metric.

- Creighton's average margin of victory over Texas A&M in program history? 23 points. Feel free to use this against Husker basketball fans.

[Chicagojayfan]

Some might enjoy this website:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/creighton/men/leaders-and-records-career.html

It shows a bunch of Creighton basketball records and other stats. A few stood out.

- Looking at pure numbers, Chad Gallagher deserves more consideration for any Top 10 all-time CU lists.

- Paul Silas averaged - repeat AVERAGED - 21.6 rebounds per game in his college career. Damn.

- All-time "offensive rebound percentage" leader in Creighton history? You guessed it. Fred King!

- All-time "Win Shares Per 40 Minutes" (started tracking in 1995) leader in CU history? You guessed it. Livan Pyfrom! Just ahead of Kyle Korver. Doug Swenson had a higher win share than Doug McDermott. McBuckets is the #2 Doug in CU history! I'm beginning to doubt the value of this metric.

- Creighton's average margin of victory over Texas A&M in program history? 23 points. Feel free to use this against Husker basketball fans.

Great find

Gallagher and Harstad were pretty amazing

Altman was a genius in how he used Pyfrom, but they probably need a better cutoff in that metric - Pyfrom didn't even make 12 minutes a game for his career!

[vivid_dude]

What will it take for Kalk to surpass Doug as the #1 Jay of all time?

Hypothetically, let's say Kalk wins Big East Player of the Year, is an All American and leads CU to a Final Four - does he inch by Doug? Does he need a national title to do it because of how next-level Doug's stats and impact were? Is there simply no path for him to take over that spot?

The longevity, consistent success, postseason victories, counting stats, historic efficiency and other accolades at least put Kalk in the conversation, assuming he has another great team and individual season. Not sure what it'll take for there to be a legit argument that he can overtake Doug. I mean, Doug is still the seventh leading scorer in NCAA history and his senior season, he swept the national player of the year awards. It'll take a lot.

Pete Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college. Just putting that here for no reason whatsoever.

Also, I'm wondering if Doug signs another NBA contract. I would guess there'd be a spot for him on a contending team. The veteran's minimum for someone with his tenure is over $3.3 million.

Looking at his professional career:
- He's going into his 11th year (hard to believe). Six different teams. I do not recall his brief stints in OKC or DAL at all.
- Career earnings of over $73 million.
- Career season was 2020-2021 with the Pacers. 13.6 PPG, 3.3 RPG in 24.5 MPG, while shooting over 53% from field.

I don't want to rock the boat or upset anybody with this controversial opinion, but I'm glad Doug didn't stay at Northern Iowa.

[bluejayfan00]

What will it take for Kalk to surpass Doug as the #1 Jay of all time?

Hypothetically, let's say Kalk wins Big East Player of the Year, is an All American and leads CU to a Final Four - does he inch by Doug? Does he need a national title to do it because of how next-level Doug's stats and impact were? Is there simply no path for him to take over that spot?

The longevity, consistent success, postseason victories, counting stats, historic efficiency and other accolades at least put Kalk in the conversation, assuming he has another great team and individual season. Not sure what it'll take for there to be a legit argument that he can overtake Doug. I mean, Doug is still the seventh leading scorer in NCAA history and his senior season, he swept the national player of the year awards. It'll take a lot.

Pete Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college. Just putting that here for no reason whatsoever.

Also, I'm wondering if Doug signs another NBA contract. I would guess there'd be a spot for him on a contending team. The veteran's minimum for someone with his tenure is over $3.3 million.

Looking at his professional career:
- He's going into his 11th year (hard to believe). Six different teams. I do not recall his brief stints in OKC or DAL at all.
- Career earnings of over $73 million.
- Career season was 2020-2021 with the Pacers. 13.6 PPG, 3.3 RPG in 24.5 MPG, while shooting over 53% from field.

I don't want to rock the boat or upset anybody with this controversial opinion, but I'm glad Doug didn't stay at Northern Iowa.

The argument is pretty easy for me. You can celebrate both without taking ones accomplishments away from another. Kalk has the better resume as far as team success and it's not close. He's also pretty damn good individually, in his own right. But, Doug was the national player of the year. The best player in the entire country. He was a lottery pick. Doug is the Creighton GOAT. Kalk belongs on the Mount Rushmore, though.

If Doug had the team around him that Kalk has had the last 4 years, his resume as far as team success would be a lot different.

[cujaysfan]

right - trey, kalk, Baylor, and Doug?

not sure how you could defend or have enough shots to go around.

[SeattleJay]

One of the most important things that Doug did: he was a huge factor in getting CU invited to the Big East.

[bluejayfan00]

right - trey, kalk, Baylor, and Doug?

not sure how you could defend or have enough shots to go around.

Lol. Point is, those teams couldn't compete with a lot of the good teams in the tournament because they lacked athleticism and literally any other shot creator to do anything. UNC was really good, that was a tough draw. I didn't think that Duke team was great, better talent around Doug and that game was winnable. Baylor was a buzzsaw. I do think if Marcus Foster had committed to us out of highschool, the ceiling for Dougs senior year goes up quite a bit.

[Jaysker12]

Knowing what Doug did to the Big East competition his senior year, it's difficult to imagine him as anything but the undisputed #1 option on any college team coached by someone who knew how to utilize him best.

I agree with bluejayfan that the quality of the supporting pieces cannot be ignored if you are factoring in team success. That 13-14 team was extremely unimpressive physically. Wragge was a 6'7 center playing on one leg most the season. Gibbs was hobbled from his knee injuries. All the guards were 6'2 or smaller and average athletes.

I remember watching Doug in the BE finals hit multiple deep 3's late in the game against Providence desperately trying to close the gap. But we just couldn't stop Bryce Cotton from scoring.

[Alphawalt]

What will it take for Kalk to surpass Doug as the #1 Jay of all time?

Hypothetically, let's say Kalk wins Big East Player of the Year, is an All American and leads CU to a Final Four - does he inch by Doug? Does he need a national title to do it because of how next-level Doug's stats and impact were? Is there simply no path for him to take over that spot?

The longevity, consistent success, postseason victories, counting stats, historic efficiency and other accolades at least put Kalk in the conversation, assuming he has another great team and individual season. Not sure what it'll take for there to be a legit argument that he can overtake Doug. I mean, Doug is still the seventh leading scorer in NCAA history and his senior season, he swept the national player of the year awards. It'll take a lot.

Pete Maravich averaged 44.2 points/game in college. Just putting that here for no reason whatsoever.

Also, I'm wondering if Doug signs another NBA contract. I would guess there'd be a spot for him on a contending team. The veteran's minimum for someone with his tenure is over $3.3 million.

Looking at his professional career:
- He's going into his 11th year (hard to believe). Six different teams. I do not recall his brief stints in OKC or DAL at all.
- Career earnings of over $73 million.
- Career season was 2020-2021 with the Pacers. 13.6 PPG, 3.3 RPG in 24.5 MPG, while shooting over 53% from field.

I don't want to rock the boat or upset anybody with this controversial opinion, but I'm glad Doug didn't stay at Northern Iowa.

Kalk might end up 4th best all time at CU. Doug is certainly #1 and will be for awhile if not forever. Kalk is not even in the same conversation as Doug. Paul Silas is clearly #2, he averaged 20 points and 20 rebounds, even though a different era, that is incredible. He was a second team all American. Kyle Korver is clearly #3. All three also ended up having long NBA careers. Kalk could be #4 if he has a better year offensively. I still think Rodney Buford is #4 and likely to stay there, and Bob Harstad and Chad Gallagher in the same level as Kalk. He is in top ten but not top 4, and can’t get there unless he has a Bill Walton type year, but that is dream land fantasy.

[Altmanforprez]

Knowing what Doug did to the Big East competition his senior year, it's difficult to imagine him as anything but the undisputed #1 option on any college team coached by someone who knew how to utilize him best.

I agree with bluejayfan that the quality of the supporting pieces cannot be ignored if you are factoring in team success. That 13-14 team was extremely unimpressive physically. Wragge was a 6'7 center playing on one leg most the season. Gibbs was hobbled from his knee injuries. All the guards were 6'2 or smaller and average athletes.

I remember watching Doug in the BE finals hit multiple deep 3's late in the game against Providence desperately trying to close the gap. But we just couldn't stop Bryce Cotton from scoring.

Absolutely no shade on Kalk, but in this conversation he is hamstrung to 3rd or 4th because how far along Creighton has come as a program in the last 10 years (really 30 years). If Doug had gotten hurt with 3 minutes left in a tournament game down 3 they almost always lose and they certainly wouldn’t have been able to go toe to toe with the a number 1 seed, and eventual National Champion, in the next round.