The next President

Return to Off Topic

Re: The next President

Postby cujaysfan » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:48 pm

i'm still firmly in the glad that hills didn't win camp - so the whole 'hills isn't nearly as bad' doesn't hold water for me.

based solely on the loosening regs on business and my industry

if hillary had won - i wouldn't have spent the last 7-8 months and a whole bucket full of dough trying to launch a new company - guaranteed

the 4 people working for me are likely happy about it, too
User avatar
cujaysfan
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:34 am

 

Re: The next President

Postby jayball » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:52 pm

HandDownManDown wrote:Now this poses a question: Do those who are viscerally anti-Trump feel like they are indeed morally superior to those who voted for him?

Because, by God, I hear that tone A LOT when I read their responses (and not just here but everywhere). Ultimately I think carrying such an attitude is a tremendous mistake, but my protestations always fall on deaf ears.

Anyone feel like answering yes/no to that and add an explanation as to why or why not?


Tone on message boards is hard to convey/read accurately. So this is probably not the ideal forum for discussions like we are attempting to have.

Personally, I don't feel morally superior to anyone. Morality is larger that political decision making and is hardly defined by one action/inaction. However, I obviously feel Trump is morally bankrupt to a dangerous degree. I feel that supporting him has bankrupted the a large portion of GOP and emboldened the worst elements in our society. So in that way I feel our system and our country should be morally superior than what Trump brought forth. I'm afraid the slide will continue if we pretend this is normal politics or acceptable behavior

I know several people that voted for Trump that I care deeply about. I know others that sat out the election entirely. I'm not trying to demonize all Trump voters, but I'm not posting watered down opinions so they feel comfortable in their support either. I want to strongly challenge the the view that trump is just another politician but bravely "he says what he means".

I am extremely concerned about the damage Trumps approach can do to our country. I feel he is so far out of normal bounds and rational expectations of our leaders that I really struggle to understand his ability to maintain support and his ability to bend the GOP to his image. "Normal" GOP folks that I know and at least somewhat understand, have been hesitant to criticize what previously would have been unthinkable positions/comments/actions. I don't know how to communicate my views in a way that sounds conciliatory because I stand against all that he represents and I think he is truly dangerous. I haven't gone after individual people or engaged in name calling that I remember. I have mostly posted long rambling arguments. I think we should all expect more out of our president and our politics.

What approach would you suggest...just sit back and be quiet?

Do you feel Trump supporters bear any responsibility for his conduct?
User avatar
jayball
 
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:18 am

Re: The next President

Postby HandDownManDown » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:55 pm

Look, mister, there's... two kinds of dumb, uh... guy that gets naked and runs out in the snow and barks at the moon, and, uh, guy who does the same thing in my living room. First one don't matter, the second one you're kinda forced to deal with.

That line comes from Hoosiers, when Gene Hackman shows up to practice the first day and the sheriff, who was running the practice, finally tells him what he thinks of having to deal with a situation that was totally out of his control. I use it because it pretty much sums up what I think is going on here. Everyone is being forced to live in a world that they're only minimally able to counter, at least in the near term. The question naturally is what to do about it. I think there's an assumption that brute political and social forces will fix this problem, and everything will go back to 'normal', or one that at least resembled the normal we knew up until November. I don't share that optimism - in fact I think that the vitriol that gets spewed by the gallon daily can be ridiculously damaging.

Why? Because I think Trump is the symptom and not the disease. Now, I had just typed out part of a treatise here covering why that is, but it isn't necessary for this post beyond mentioning the desperation that many of his followers feel. They're in such despair that they felt like the only way anything positive could come of their situation is to blow it up and see where the pieces landed. This is an incredibly dangerous state of mind for tens of millions of people to be in; regardless of what you think of their worldviews or how tightly they cling to careers and ways of life that are dying, everyone should recognize that a) they aren't going to be talked out of it and b) should Trump fail, they're not only going to be despondent, but looking for someone to take it out on. And oh yeah, they own all the guns. People like this need to be treated carefully and thoughtfully, because if you add insult to injury to the degree that I see occurring on a daily basis on TV and on social media, all bets are off as to what's going to happen once Trump is out of office - because he will be, either by eviction or by the passage of time. I'm not saying that people need to not address Trump's actions forcefully, but why the heck can't it be done in a manner that leaves people with any shred of dignity? Because they don't deserve it? I hope people don't believe that. I set that question up to say, if you're morally superior, ACT LIKE IT WHEN DEALING WITH THEM, because if you're as base and cruel as you see them to be you aren't any better.

That's one reason, from the emotional side. The other reason is of a more practical nature: all this noise and bile is creating such a barrier for any serious reflection on the Left that it's hamstringing their efforts to stem Trump's tide. How the hell can we be over nine months removed from the election and not have a shred of a Democratic platform? Or how the national party has not only not managed to secure one meaningful win, its absolute lack of cohesion caused one election (the mayoral election here in town) to flip from a Democratic pickup to a Republican hold?

If you want to make sure that both a) Trump is first neutralized, then removed and b) this never happens again, emotion needs to be set aside to let clear thinking prevail. None of that is happening - case in point, thinking a reheated Papa John's slogan is substantial - and I see no hope that the approach will change anytime soon. How about addressing what to do about the fact that all three congressional and electoral college setups are slanted away from the Democrats? Is laughing on social media and on talk shows about coal mines not being reopened a good way to deal with the fact that the upper Midwest (and their voters) will likely control who is in the Oval Office (at least until Texas flips in 15-20 years)? None of this is being dealt with. If you're going to spit in someone's eye you'd better be damn sure you're not going to have to be forced to live in their world for an even longer period of time for doing so.

That's the tip of the iceberg. No one even knows what to do about the Pelosi factor next fall, how to fix a laughable bench, no young blood...shit, there's a ton to be done and not a damn thing has happened on that front. Why? I think it's because all the energy is being spent elsewhere.

As much as I think he's a horse's ass, I have to hand it to Rahm. His response was, everyone needs to calm down and realize we aren't getting right back into power. Focus on what it will take to reattain that power and realize that there are no moral victories. I think the Left is doing the opposite of that, and it would not surprise me IN THE LEAST if the House doesn't flip, the GOP adds seats in the Senate, and there are more concrete signs of the Rust Belt trending away from the Democrats.

The clock is ticking. I think the Left is fucking up. And even if they do manage to take back over, what exactly are they inheriting? A populace so fractured that it can't be reunited? How does being as vicious as you can be help such a situation?
User avatar
HandDownManDown
 
Posts: 1884
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:14 pm
Location: Little Italy

Re: The next President

Postby HandDownManDown » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:28 am

One other thing: that was not in response to Jayball but addressing the Omaha Ben contingency on here, as well as the lions share of social media, talk shows, and the blogosphere. I don't have a problem with debate, I just think that doing so in a way that emasculates is asking for unintended consequences.
User avatar
HandDownManDown
 
Posts: 1884
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:14 pm
Location: Little Italy

Re: The next President

Postby OmahaBen » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:14 am

Oh horse hockey. They support Trump because he "tells it like it is." They don't then get to be offended when we tell it like it really is. Respect is a two-way street, and I'm done turning the other cheek just to keep getting hit.

That kind of double standard is why democrats lose. We have to respect their sensibilities and their feelings while they call us dirty libs who hate 'Murica and want to turn everyone communist.

To steal a line from the Simpsons, not all Trump supporters are racist, but Trump is No. 1 with racists. That is the segment that is deplorable.
OmahaBen
 
Posts: 341
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:29 am

Re: The next President

Postby KenoshaJay » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:03 am

OmahaBen wrote:Oh horse hockey. They support Trump because he "tells it like it is." They don't then get to be offended when we tell it like it really is. Respect is a two-way street, and I'm done turning the other cheek just to keep getting hit.

That kind of double standard is why democrats lose. We have to respect their sensibilities and their feelings while they call us dirty libs who hate 'Murica and want to turn everyone communist.

To steal a line from the Simpsons, not all Trump supporters are racist, but Trump is No. 1 with racists. That is the segment that is deplorable.


"It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 549338001/
KenoshaJay
 
Posts: 738
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:55 am

Re: The next President

Postby vivid_dude » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:10 am

OmahaBen wrote:Oh horse hockey.


While I appreciate you for being against Trump, I appreciate you more for using the term "horse hockey."

Thank you!
User avatar
vivid_dude
 
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:53 pm

Re: The next President

Postby vivid_dude » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:13 am

KenoshaJay wrote:
OmahaBen wrote:Oh horse hockey. They support Trump because he "tells it like it is." They don't then get to be offended when we tell it like it really is. Respect is a two-way street, and I'm done turning the other cheek just to keep getting hit.

That kind of double standard is why democrats lose. We have to respect their sensibilities and their feelings while they call us dirty libs who hate 'Murica and want to turn everyone communist.

To steal a line from the Simpsons, not all Trump supporters are racist, but Trump is No. 1 with racists. That is the segment that is deplorable.


"It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 549338001/


"Shortchanging African Americans" isn't in the same stratosphere as what the GOP actively sets out to do to African Americans, via their positions on a host of social issues. So, I give your attempt a D-, and that's only because I'm still in a good mood after seeing "horse hockey."
User avatar
vivid_dude
 
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:53 pm

Re: The next President

Postby bird_call » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:56 am

HandDownManDown wrote:....
Why? Because I think Trump is the symptom and not the disease. Now, I had just typed out part of a treatise here covering why that is, but it isn't necessary for this post beyond mentioning the desperation that many of his followers feel. They're in such despair that they felt like the only way anything positive could come of their situation is to blow it up and see where the pieces landed. This is an incredibly dangerous state of mind for tens of millions of people to be in; regardless of what you think of their worldviews or how tightly they cling to careers and ways of life that are dying, everyone should recognize that a) they aren't going to be talked out of it and b) should Trump fail, they're not only going to be despondent, but looking for someone to take it out on. And oh yeah, they own all the guns. People like this need to be treated carefully and thoughtfully, because if you add insult to injury to the degree that I see occurring on a daily basis on TV and on social media, all bets are off as to what's going to happen once Trump is out of office - because he will be, either by eviction or by the passage of time. I'm not saying that people need to not address Trump's actions forcefully, but why the heck can't it be done in a manner that leaves people with any shred of dignity? Because they don't deserve it? I hope people don't believe that. I set that question up to say, if you're morally superior, ACT LIKE IT WHEN DEALING WITH THEM, because if you're as base and cruel as you see them to be you aren't any better.



In other words, America has a bunch of primary voters who are resorting to nihilism as a form of political expression. If they don't get what they want, they'll resort to violence to get what they want. Trump rode the wave of nihilism, fear, and anger to office.

Those voters doesn't exactly sound like people that can be reasoned with. Moreover, they don't believe in democratic policies and the expanded role of government that follows from those policies.

Raising taxes on the rich is socialism. Providing all Americans with access to affordable health care is socialism. Economic assistance to the poor in the form of food stamps is socialism. Wanting equal pay for women is being a Feminazi. Requiring sick leave and family leave and maternity leave is too much regulations. Helping people pay for college is more socialism.

One might as well argue climate change with CUFF.

[edit - postscript]
to your broader point, I do agree that the left and the late night shows do employ a ton of mockery and sarcasm when dealing with Republican ideas/policies/politicians. Not sure why, but it is probably a natural outgrowth from "The Daily Show" treatment of political ideas back in the old Stewart/Colbert days. However, mainstream media sources like the news shows and big papers still really try to seem "serious" and "balanced" though. Given the current climate where those news sources are proclaimed as "fake news", I'm pretty sure that the "tone" of the discussion isn't the issue. Where the left-wingers feed on mockery/sarcasm, the right-wing feeds on anger/outrage.
bird_call
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:34 pm

Re: The next President

Postby LynchMob » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:27 pm

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose!
LynchMob
 
Posts: 1875
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:48 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Off Topic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest