The next President

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Re: The next President

Postby KenoshaJay » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:15 am

jayball wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/16/more-arrested-in-toppling-confederate-statue-in-north-carolina.html

The rope around the confederate soldier happened in Durham not Charlottesville. Four people from WWP have been arrested for vandalism. Mr O'Donnell is peddling some fake news.

There may have been WWP at Charlottesville also. I know little about them. I will research them more but I think mr O'Donnell's article is inaccurate and arbitrary. He conflates legitimate debates over freedom of speech, establishment clause (freedoms of religion), and equal protection with taking a stand against white supremacy, KKK, and neo nazis. Those ideologies dehumanize and condone racial and religious purification by violent means. It is not remotely close to debates over religious symbols being allowed on public lands.

There are violent left wing groups. Communist regimes killed many people. They were not the story in Charlottesville.

The largest white supremacist demonstration in decades was the story. The death of Heather Heyer was the story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg

Supposedly there will be 9 more of these this weekend. There will be counter protesters. There will be violence. The rising tide of hateful ideologies represents a threat to the lives of many people.

Donald Trump's comments embolden white supremacist hate groups. He condoned violence at this campaign rallies. He provided aid and comfort to these groups. In a way Mr. O'Donnell does also.


O'Donnell is not Donohue.

BO had a soft spot regarding BLM. Did not experience the media backlash. Not equating Trump and BO. Time will tell.
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Re: The next President

Postby OmahaBen » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:28 am

No, you're just equating BLM with neo-nazis. Which is, itself, asinine.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when the CBS poll this morning said 55% of Republicans approve of Trump's handling of the Charlottesville situation. I'm just saddened that the proportion of this country that is either flat out racist or is ok enough with it to let it slide is as high as it is.
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Re: The next President

Postby jfan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:08 am

Trump and his surrogates are now putting out the false narrative that this was all about confederate statues. They are saying there were "many" innocents at the rally to protest the taking down of Lee's statue and the innocents were viciously attacked by the Alt Left. This is despite conclusive video evidence that the rally was all about Neo-Nazism and white nationalism. As others have pointed out, if there were "innocents" at the rally, why would they hang around when the torch carrying idiots began chanting "Jews will not replace us" and "blood and soil". Trump, as he has all his life, lies about what has really happened and tries to change the facts to fit what he wants to have as the reality of things, even when it is clear he is lying. He is trying to keep his base happy and then he hopes that things will change enough in his favor to bring others back so that he will be re-elected. (God help us all). As far as 55% of Republicans supporting the way he has handled this, not surprising in my opinion. As Trump has said, he could go out to 5th Avenue and shoot someone in cold blood and his supporters wouldn't be fazed. "So sad" and so scary for the country!
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Re: The next President

Postby KenoshaJay » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:10 am

OmahaBen wrote:No, you're just equating BLM with neo-nazis. Which is, itself, asinine.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when the CBS poll this morning said 55% of Republicans approve of Trump's handling of the Charlottesville situation. I'm just saddened that the proportion of this country that is either flat out racist or is ok enough with it to let it slide is as high as it is.


My paternal grandfather was a prisoner in Buchenwald for 17 months. Survived and only shared his experience with a small group of people, I was one of them. He died during my Junior year at Creighton. I am not a neo-nazi sympathizer. BLM has openly supported the murder of police and I believe continue to do so.
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Re: The next President

Postby jln » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 am

KenoshaJay wrote:
OmahaBen wrote:No, you're just equating BLM with neo-nazis. Which is, itself, asinine.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised when the CBS poll this morning said 55% of Republicans approve of Trump's handling of the Charlottesville situation. I'm just saddened that the proportion of this country that is either flat out racist or is ok enough with it to let it slide is as high as it is.


My paternal grandfather was a prisoner in Buchenwald for 17 months. Survived and only shared his experience with a small group of people, I was one of them. He died during my Junior year at Creighton. I am not a neo-nazi sympathizer. BLM has openly supported the murder of police and I believe continue to do so.


That's not really true. Well, you may continue to believe it I guess. I don't know if that part is true. But the first part isn't really true.
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Re: The next President

Postby Jaynut » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:06 pm

KenoshaJay wrote:BLM has openly supported the murder of police and I believe continue to do so.


From the BLM website, listing 11 misconceptions about BLM:

The movement hates police officers. Police officers are people. Their lives have inherent value. This movement is not an anti-people movement; therefore it is not an anti-police-officer movement. Most police officers are just everyday people who want to do their jobs, make a living for their families, and come home safely at the end of their shift. This does not mean, however, that police are not implicated in a system that criminalizes black people, that demands that they view black people as unsafe and dangerous, that trains them to be more aggressive and less accommodating with black citizens, and that does not stress that we are taxpayers who deserve to be protected and served just like everyone else. Thus the Black Lives Matter movement is not trying to make the world more unsafe for police officers; it hopes to make police officers less of a threat to communities of color. Thus, we reject the idea that asking officers questions about why one is being stopped or arrested, about what one is being charged with, constitutes either disrespect or resistance. We reject the use of military-grade weapons as appropriate policing mechanisms for any American community. We reject the faulty idea that disrespect is a crime, that black people should be nice or civil when they are being hassled or arrested on trumped-up charges. And we question the idea that police officers should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to policing black communities. Increasingly, the presence of police makes black people feel less rather than more safe. And that has everything to do with the antagonistic and power-laden ways in which police interact with citizens more generally and black citizens in particular. Therefore, police officers must rebuild trust with the communities they police. Not the other way around.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/11-major-mi ... -movement/
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Re: The next President

Postby bird_call » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:15 pm

The BLM is in no way comparable to Nazis, confederates, or white nationalists.

Even if the BLM was advocating killing police, which they aren't, it still wouldn't be any sort of moral equivalence to the list of crimes perpetuated by white nationalists.

Here's a mid-year breakdown of police fatalities, produced by the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund.
http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/repor ... -FINAL.pdf

65 officers were killed so far this year, which is almost half of what is was a decade ago. Equal numbers of officers die in firearms and traffic related incidents. Only a few were outside of routine investigations (i.e., assassination style hits, rather than responses to crime scenes/domestic disturbance/traffic stops).

Are you really comparing a few bad apples who shoot cops to the group of people who are responsible for Slavery, the Holocaust, WWII, Civil War, Jim Crow era, and Lynchings?

Matthew 7:3-5 New Living Translation (NLT)

3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye[a] when you have a log in your own? 4 How can you think of saying to your friend,[b] ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.
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Re: The next President

Postby jayball » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:36 am

KenoshaJay wrote:O'Donnell is not Donohue. BO had a soft spot regarding BLM. Did not experience the media backlash. Not equating Trump and BO. Time will tell.


wrong name sorry for the confusion.

I'm unclear by what time will tell? That violence will spiral up? That left wing groups will respond to white supremacist provocations with violence. Yes that is highly likely in my opinion and a very scary situation. If it happens it will enflame things further and risks pushing more people to choose a "side". Thing could get particularly ugly if any of the highly armed militias become more engaged to act on one side and less as "peacekeepers" as reported in Charlottesville. Law enforcement and local government officials will be strained to the max to try to prevent violent outbreaks in future demonstrations.

I am not sure I fully understand the point you and Mr. Donahue are trying to make. I'm hearing that "No one supports Nazis or the KKK but we can't 100% blame Nazis and KKK because white culture and Christian culture is under some sort of threat. There are left wing groups that are just as bad like WWP, Weather Underground, Black Panthers, and now BLM." Am I misreading that or misunderstanding you? That seems like equivocation. What would you suggest we do to fight the rise of white supremacist hatred?

birdcall wrote:Even if the BLM was advocating killing police, which they aren't, it still wouldn't be any sort of moral equivalence to the list of crimes perpetuated by white nationalists.


100% disagree. If any group calls for indiscriminate killing to advance their views they lose moral authority. BLM is not calling for that so the point is mute. But we cannot legitimize violence as a political tool regardless of the motivations. Violent responses will give more people a rationale to join/support white supremacist groups.

It would be great if we could somehow as a country follow this German towns lead.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opinion/how-to-make-fun-of-nazis.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=0
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Re: The next President

Postby KenoshaJay » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:06 pm

Good post Jayball.

Provocative.

Look forward to reading the NYT article. I've been to that part of Germany a number of times. The Germans are dealing with a lot of issues right now. Since WWII, this is the longest peace time in Germany for close to 600 years.
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Re: The next President

Postby KenoshaJay » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:13 pm

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