Faith

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Re: Faith

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:57 pm

cujaysfan wrote:my apologies if i'm mis-remembering - i might be lumping lutherans in with the rest of the american protestants - as not believing in RP - it's been a long time and a lot of bourbons since my last theology class

the point about married priests (and non married) - from those denominations was that the theology was lockstep (enough) - that accepting them into the Catholic fold is possible.

that's not true for Lutherans.


Still not following what you are talking about with married or non-married priests - is there another option? What is in lock with the faith about being married or non married, and what do you mean by accepting them into the faith? Aren't priests already IN the faith? And what does that have to do with real presence? And in the Lutheran faith there is no prohibition on marriage for pastors - so I don't know what you think is "not true" about Lutherans
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Re: Faith

Postby cujaysfan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:21 pm

if a priest from one of the orthodox faiths converts to Catholicism - it's relatively painless - it's the loophole into being a married Catholic priest - i kinda thought everyone was aware of this.

it's illustrating the synergy btw those faiths and their theology - and the vatican
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Re: Faith

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:59 pm

cujaysfan wrote:if a priest from one of the orthodox faiths converts to Catholicism - it's relatively painless - it's the loophole into being a married Catholic priest - i kinda thought everyone was aware of this.

it's illustrating the synergy btw those faiths and their theology - and the vatican


Got it - I just wasn't following the way you were saying it.

That doesn't change that Lutherans believe in real presence.
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Re: Faith

Postby gtmoBlue » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:32 pm

My mom was catholic, pops was...pops, but both baptist and methodists were in his family tree. Being a military guy - I was a rolling stone. After retirement, I wound up returning back to Catholicism (coincidentally, so did my sister).
At Creighton one of the prides of my education was the many philosophy and theology classes I took. Let me just say that spending a small amount of time in taking religious counceling on the hilltop will pay dividends. They won't rope n tie you to Catholicism, and you will gain clarity in what it is you are seeking. Once clear you will have an easier time in identifying the denomination and ethos that most appeals to you.
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Re: Faith

Postby cujaysfan » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:58 pm

A little followup if anyone is interested - i was curious and wanted to satisfy - so here it is

Consubstantiation (Lutheran) - Transubstantiation (Catholic)

Consubstantiation holds that through the Holy Spirit, Jesus becomes present in the bread and wine. The bread and wine (in their substance), however, do not actually change into Jesus; Jesus becomes present in and with them.

Transubstantiation is the holy conversion of the elements (bread and wine) into the actual body and blood.

The practical difference between the two positions (the divine Substance manifests alongside the mundane substances of bread and wine versus the mundane substances of bread and wine transforming into divine Substance) is de minimis.

There are philosophical and I suppose poetic implications, though - and those are probably enough that it affects Holy Orders for converting priests that was discussed.
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Re: Faith

Postby vivid_dude » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:11 am

Outlaw_Wales wrote:
The concept of real presence in the Eucharist is not a Catholic exclusive. Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.


My understanding is that there are different factions within the Lutheran faith. Some believe that the transformation is literal - bread and wine become actual blood and body of Christ. Others believe it is symbolic.
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Re: Faith

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:48 pm

vivid_dude wrote:
Outlaw_Wales wrote:
The concept of real presence in the Eucharist is not a Catholic exclusive. Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.


My understanding is that there are different factions within the Lutheran faith. Some believe that the transformation is literal - bread and wine become actual blood and body of Christ. Others believe it is symbolic.


No. The Lutheran faith does not include a belief in symbolic presence in the Eucharist. I mean, there are "factions" of every faith that don't follow all the rules, but all major synods of the Lutheran Church, and Luther himself, teach real presence.
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Re: Faith

Postby JaysLifer » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:27 pm

Outlaw_Wales wrote:
vivid_dude wrote:
Outlaw_Wales wrote:
The concept of real presence in the Eucharist is not a Catholic exclusive. Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.


My understanding is that there are different factions within the Lutheran faith. Some believe that the transformation is literal - bread and wine become actual blood and body of Christ. Others believe it is symbolic.


No. The Lutheran faith does not include a belief in symbolic presence in the Eucharist. I mean, there are "factions" of every faith that don't follow all the rules, but all major synods of the Lutheran Church, and Luther himself, teach real presence.


What is "real presence"? I've seen that made into a proper noun at times in this thread and it's been talked about so much that I feel like I may have missed something in my decade-plus of Catholic schooling (that wouldn't be surprising, of course, because I missed a whole host of things throughout my schooling). Catholics believe in transubstantiation, which is to say that we don't believe that Christ is merely present in the Eucharist (what I've gathered to be the meaning of "real presence" from reading this thread), but we believe that the bread and wine become literally the body and blood of Christ.
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Re: Faith

Postby Outlaw_Wales » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:59 pm

JaysLifer wrote:
What is "real presence"? I've seen that made into a proper noun at times in this thread and it's been talked about so much that I feel like I may have missed something in my decade-plus of Catholic schooling (that wouldn't be surprising, of course, because I missed a whole host of things throughout my schooling). Catholics believe in transubstantiation, which is to say that we don't believe that Christ is merely present in the Eucharist (what I've gathered to be the meaning of "real presence" from reading this thread), but we believe that the bread and wine become literally the body and blood of Christ.


Real presence is exactly what you just described -- the belief that the Christ is "really" present in the Eucharist. Some of the protestant faiths, for example, treat the wine and bread as being a symbol of Christ's blood and body, but don't believe that he is really present. Catholics and Lutherans believe that He is "really present" and it isn't just a symbol.
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